"And if it's the first time I've heard of it, I grab it. I can't tell you how many. And you know what? Most of them don't hit. Most of them are going to be worthless. But all you've got to do is grab one of those and it can change your life. So, the way I look at it, it's $8 going into a lottery ticket, and if I buy a couple hundred or 300 lottery tickets a year, maybe they'll work and maybe it won't. But one of them can change the world."
Jeff: Right. Do you still ever hand register names? If so, can you give us a couple recent examples?
Rick: I hand register almost every day of my life.
Jeff: Really?
Rick: Yeah. When I put a blog post together, sometimes I'll come up with a phrase and I'll say, "Geez. I better register that before I make the post." The other day I was talking about the Candy.com sale, and I said something about formula sales. Well geez, I didn't want to post that without . . . I go and I ran this, FormulaSales, is that available? It's available. Okay. Let me grab it, because if I don't, someone else is. And I believe in that. And I pick up on phrases all day long that I've never heard of before. And if it's the first time I've heard of it, I grab it. I can't tell you how many. And you know what? Most of them don't hit. Most of them are going to be worthless. But all you've got to do is grab one of those and it can change your life. So, the way I look at it, it's $8 going into a lottery ticket, and if I buy a couple hundred or 300 lottery tickets a year, maybe they'll work and maybe it won't. But one of them can change the world.
Jeff: What about misspellings? What about using words that sound like a generic but may be spelled differently, but very easy to remember, say and spell? I'm reading questions, so I don't have any specific examples, but I guess it's not like misspelling a typo, a proper noun as much as a generic or a word. Do you do understand where this is going?
Rick: Well, listen. If you're misspelling a trademark name, shame on you. That's a no-no.
Jeff: Right. I presume that's not what they're saying.
Rick: At this stage, we shouldn't be doing that anymore, and Google shouldn't be monetizing it. No PPC company should be monetizing it anymore.
Jeff: Right. Generics. I wonder if the person, if the person wants to enter a clarification on this, maybe they mean homonyms, pair and pear. But something a little bit afield from that, so maybe put something out there if somebody has clarification.
Rick: A generic domain that's misspelled, that doesn't infringe on anyone's rights the last I looked at. I don't think there's a problem with that. But listen, don't misspell Ferrari. That may not go over so well.
Jeff: Exactly. Looking back over the past decade, has what makes a good domain name changed at all, especially how many good names have been taken? I mean, you came up with FormulasSales.com, whether that's a good or bad domain name, I guess time will tell, depending on whether Enfamil or Similac or one of the baby formula companies comes along and says, "We want that name."
Rick: [laughs]
Jeff: There you go. There's the concept. I have three young kids. You can tell. But has anything changed what constitutes a good name? And do you feel that there's always more out there, you just have to, in the midst of writing a blog post, think about what maybe something someone wants to register?
Rick: Well yeah. Listen. Domains will always evolve and change. It's just like the real world. You can be in Kansas and nothing's going on. But if they build a mall in the middle someplace, then you're going to draw other people. So, when you have a success like MySpace, then everyone else becomes MyThis, MyThat and whatever. And if you have a success like YouTube, everyone else becomes YouPorn and YouThis and YouThat, and they copy that. And that's what will eventually branch out. Those will be the tributaries that will eventually . . . and some of them can become huge. It's just like the idomains, iPhone. It's a vein. And once the vein gets exploited or there's a great success, everything changes on that. I shouldn't say it changes. It has the ability to change. It has the ability to grow. It has the ability to catch on.
Jeff: Have you changed the way you look at domains and the acquisition of domains? FormulaSales being one of your most recent, LipService being your first. About 14 years has transpired in between the two. Is there anything that you . . . you've learned a lot, obviously, in 14 years. But is there anything that has changed the way you look at domains, the way you seek them, create them, acquire them, what you're looking for? Notwithstanding the fact that all the domains that were available 14 years ago, all the good ones are gone, all the basics. But by what has changed in the years since?
Rick: The first thing I said when I realized what was going on is this is a unique opportunity in time that my father didn't have, my grandfather didn't have, and his grandfather before him didn't have. And I realized that that time was of really, really working hard, and getting it was short. And so early on, I worked incredibly hard to secure what I went out to try to do. Everything that I have seen unfold in 14 years has only reinforced what I saw coming in. Every single mile marker was exactly as I thought it would come. I think the only things that really disappointed me were probably internal things inside the industry. Not the evolution of domain names itself. I think we shot ourselves in the foot more often than we were shot in the foot from the outside world.
Jeff: Has that change? Have you seen that change in recent years?
Rick: Well, it got really bad I think probably around 2007 I would say was the worst. I think things are a little bit calmer now, but a lot of damage has been done. A lot of companies came into this space and did bad things and left destruction in their wake.
Jeff: We were talking earlier before the webinar, you and I were having a chat. And you mentioned one word, and it's come up a number of times in a number of ways today without saying the word, but patience and how important patience is. And being able to ride out, whether it's ride out a maelstrom of bad things going on, whether it's 2007, or knowing that something you have may one day hit it big and have to sit on renewals after renewals after renewals. Some have said I believe your annual I think was upward of $350,000 a year, something for the business operations. But how big, how important is patience in what our listeners and even yourself are trying to accomplish here?
Rick: There are only two things that count -- patience and timing. Timing and patience. That's it. I couldn't name two things more important than that. I have seen more businesses go under because they got either one or two of those wrong, and most of the time they get both of them wrong. Everyone laughs at me with my 20-year plan. And they especially laughed 14 years ago. But I've always been serious about it, because I know how long it takes for something like this, as big as this, to unfold. Look, if you go and you have a baby, you can't send them to college when he's three years old, and you can't be upset with him that he can't drive a car when he's six. You have to be patient and nurturing, and eventually he's going to get there.
And if people would approach the domain industry and say, "Oh, this is my child, and gees, it's going to take years to get there." I bet you half of people's frustration and the way they conduct themselves would go away, because they wouldn't always be disappointed that what they thought was going to happen didn't happen. That causes frustration.
Jeff: Right. At least not on the pace they were having it. Impatience is a killer. One of the things, to point out something here, people are seeing images from Traffic on the screen now. We're scrolling through some of those. You were involved in private chat where top flight domainers came together out of the closet, contributed to each other's growth, which spawned Traffic, which is the most significant community of interest of its kind in the world. You've taken online offline. You've help cement relationships, built networking opportunities to the point that one could argue that your venues have resulted in tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars in business. Talk about giving back. Really, talk to us a bit about your goal in Traffic. And I know there have been some questions out there about upcoming Traffic. But talk to us about your goal with that and if it's been the realization of what you envisioned early on.
Rick: Well, most people know the story of Traffic. It started as a really small get-together in my home, and it just kind of blossomed. So I won't bore you all with the details, but I think, let's face it. There are six billion people in the world, and there's about 75 of us right now having this discussion. I look at it like, how many top tier domainers are there? 300? 500? 1,000? Pick your number. Out of six billion people in the world, I think it says something about who we are and how we approach things. Our insight and being able to understand something kind of abstract on one hand and very simple on the other hand. The people that come to Traffic, and what I try to create at Traffic is an atmosphere of opportunity.
Now, I can't go to someone working at Macy's at $7 an hour and explain to them about opportunity and seizing opportunity. Because if they don't see $7 an hour on their paycheck on Friday, they're going to flip out. So they're very one-dimensional. We're multi-dimensional. We see things where others don't see. And that is what has made Traffic so cool, is we create this atmosphere that creates opportunity, and great things happen. And it's magic. I wouldn't waste my time doing it if it wasn't magic. It's just magical things happen, relationships are forged, life changing deals are made, and you can't put a price on it. It's priceless. And if it wasn't as good as it is, nobody would be copying everything we do.
So, we have a formula that's worked over the years. It's propelled many of the businesses in our space. We're the king makers. They come to Traffic and their business grows. And it's happened time and time again. I think it's been a great thing for everyone in the industry. Even the people who have never been to Traffic have definitely benefited, because we're out there. We're trailblazing. We're just a couple of steps ahead. And as you can tell from our chat tonight, I say what's on my mind. And the chips fall where they may. I have no value to anyone to bulls*** them.
Jeff: Right Traffic is coming up soon again. We have . . .
Rick: And one of the motives behind Traffic was, when you have a few thousand dollars on the table, and you've traveled somewhere, you're motivated to make things happen. You're not passive, because now you have a little skin in the game as they've been saying lately. So when you have skin in the game, that creates an energy, and that energy is contagious, and it's something that . . . everyone can copy everything we do mechanically. But that's the one thing that that they can't copy, that one ingredient. It's kind of like the pasta that your old Italian grandmother made. As hard as you try to copy it, man, you just can't quite get that taste.
Jeff: Right. Who are your mentors? Who do you turn to? Who are people that you follow? That's a question that came up a couple times in the questions, and it's one that I was going to put out there. People who you, in your life or current day that you've considered somebody you turn to for instruction, guidance, or a mentor type position? Who teaches you?
Rick: I'm glad you asked that question, because I have a lot of mentors in life, and I've picked up a lot of mentors in life. I'm good at recognizing mentors when I find them. And they get harder to come by as you get older. I guess my dad was my first one because he was just so honest, never took advantage of anyone in his whole life, worked every day, just did it right. So he was my first one I would say. When I was 20 years old, I was working at a retail furniture store, and the guy by the name of Bob Hade came down and put us through some intensive sales training. He's long gone. He passed away maybe 10 or 15 years ago. But he was a great mentor.
I've worked for people. And you know what? Sometimes, some of my mentors aren't even friends, they're foes. But that doesn't mean you can't learn from your foe also. Everyone that I've worked along the way of life has been a mentor. Look at the blogs. There's mentors on the blogs. Look at Mike Berkens, and there's guys in our industry that are mentors. Howard Neu, my partner. You know what, what you are, you steal the best of all the people you come in contact with in your life. At least that's what I do. I'm a thief. I'm the biggest thief in the world, because I try to steal the very best parts of the people that I meet.
Jeff: Right. And frankly, I think they'd be, often a mentor would be flattered to know. And as they say, let's call it imitation is the finest form of flattery. So theft or imitation, depending on how you look at it. If I may, we're coming near the end of the session, throw a couple more questions out there from the field. There was one, bear with me one second. Let me get back to this question that was out there. Anyone that people should be turning to in the industry to lead them into the future? That's one of the questions. Who should people be turning to, to lead them in the future? Although I would hazard to guess from what our conversation has been today, they should probably turn to themselves, and really they should . . .
Rick: You got it. That's exactly what I was going to say. They better be turning to themselves, because they all need to turn into leaders.
Jeff: Right. Another question, which .tel domain did you register today?
Rick: DomainKing and RickSchwartz.
Jeff: There you go.
Rick: Oh, and Fart.
Jeff: That's good. What was your favorite subject in school? These are getting a little random, but I love random.
Rick: My favorite subject in school. Well it wasn't art, and it wasn't philosophy. Actually, I had a creative writing course in my senior year of high school that I really, really enjoyed, and I give it a lot of credit for probably creating some really early goals in life that were completely unattainable when I wrote them down on paper, and which I've achieved. And it kind of feels good.
Jeff: A question, again this is ultimate and random. What does Rick think about city geo domains and .us as far as an investment hold and resale?
Rick: I'm not a expert on .us nor geo domains. But it seems to me like they would have a decent future.
Jeff: Okay. Discuss how .mobi could become a stepchild to the m. phenomenon and how much will mobile devices account for good, profitable online traffic within five years.
Rick: Well, let me tell you, if the iPhone is any indication. It's funny. I have a whole blog post ready to go about the iPhone and how it's switched me from the IBM world to setting up my first Mac starting last Friday night, and I'm just about finished with the migration. And then my brother showed me his little Dell that he got that he just sticks in his trunk. I think he paid $245 for this little one pound Dell with Internet access. To speak about that, when I was setting up the Apple and they have the .me and the cloud and everything. It shows that we are obviously a mobile world, and I don't like to travel as much as I once did, because I basically lived out of a suitcase for 15 years. I realize that a lot of people listening, that's one of the things that motivates them to do well and to earn money so that they can go travel around the world and see lots of things. So, I think mobile devices are just going to get bigger and bigger. I know the iPhone really, I can't say enough about the iPhone.
Jeff: That company, in so many ways, has consistently reinvented its product and reinvented culture and society around it, from the first Macintosh to the way computers, the Apples are now.
Rick: You know what? Now they really did it. You know why? Because they sold tens of millions of these. And I'm sure more of the people are using IBM. And let me tell you, I was never in an Apple store in my life until I bought the iPhone, but when you go in there, there's such excitement. There's such activity. You can feel that energy in there. And here's a company that really had a fairly small market share, and I got news for you. They're poised to eat up the IBM world. I really think that their market share is just going to start going through the roof now, because I'm sure I'm not the only fan. And if you have a BlackBerry out there and you don't have an iPhone, geez, you've got to get an iPhone, just to play with it. I've got both of them sitting here, but I'm telling you, it's mm-mm.
Jeff: It's something else. You don't feel that same energy when you walk into a CompUSA as you feel when you walk into an Apple store?
Rick: Not exactly.
Jeff: Not exactly. How do you feel . . . I'll profess ignorance to this, or admit ignorance. How do you feel about Agoga, A-G-O-G-A? I don't know what that is. A-G-O-G-A.
Rick: What am I supposed to feel about it?
Jeff: I have no idea. I don't know. I just threw it out there.
Rick: I think I've heard of it once. Do I have to go to it? Give me a hint.
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. You and I are in the same boat. So if they want to throw some clarification.
Rick: I thought I was way behind the curve here. I was getting nervous.
Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Well, you and I are rounding the curve. What would you be doing if you weren't domaining? And that's not to say you only domain. You said you have other business as well.
Rick: Well, because my motto was turning virtual into real. So I've become pretty astute on real estate out there. Actually, I know more than most of the real estates agents in south Florida these days. I know like every property that's on the market. I'm watching things. I see things that no one sees. For example, I can tell you that the top end of the housing market is about to fall off a cliff. I'm seeing houses that are five and ten million dollars that are never going to sell. And they're new houses, and they've been designed so poorly that they're going to take a bulldozer and that's how these houses are going. So there's a lot of things going on out there. I guess that gets the economy, which I know the domainers think it doesn't affect them, and I've been talking about it for quite a while. It ain't going to be pretty. It's going to get a whole lot worse. We're going to see this little blip up. It's a little feel good for a while, but it's going to get really, really, really ugly.
Jeff: Yeah. Many are thinking, and I think that's probably something we're going to see. Talk to me about Traffic West in San Jose next month and how will it stand out from the rest?
Rick: Well, it's going to stand out because, as always, we're going to focus on monetization, and we're going to talk directly to the folks at Google and Yahoo, the PPC companies. And we're bringing in people that have all kinds of new monetization solutions. I can tell you, there's a lot of activity out there. There's all types of things going on. And it doesn't take much to completely upset the apple cart. And I think the apple cart is about to get upset.
Jeff: It'll be interesting. Reason to be out in San Jose in April. Quick question, maybe one or two more questions. And this may not be a quick question, but someone threw out there, can you give us a hint at negotiation strategy? How you decide on a fair price for a name? In the early days, was it difficult not to sell too cheaply? How have things change along those lines? Sounds to me like a case by case scenario, but are there any sort of rules to that?
Rick: Well, first of all, I don't believe on fair pricing. I believe at outrageous pricing. That's the first thing. So when I see a guy that says he wants a reasonable price, I usually throw that in the garbage, because there's no way I'm selling a domain for a reasonable price. That's number one.
Number two, I've only sold about 10 or 12 domains in my entire lifetime. So I'm not out there looking to sell domains. I'm looking out there to increase the value of domains. And that it a natural process that the only thing I can hopefully do is accelerate it a little bit. I run into a lot of domainers, and they waste a lot of time answering useless emails. And some of them don't even know the difference between an e-mail and a spam. And then there's domainers that are spamming the hell out of everything, and it's just sickening. The best way I can tell you is don't answer 90% of your e-mails. And you've got to say no a whole lot.
Jeff: Have to say no. Just say, come back when you're serious.
Rick: And you've got to be used to a lot of people calling you all kinds of names when you do give them a price. Look, the bottom line is, when you have a legitimate prospect . . . and I focus on end users. I'm not looking to sell to domainers. That's not what I do, though I understand a lot of people do that, and that's fine. But that's not my game. Like I said, I'm a pitcher. Other people play different positions, and if I couldn't do this, then I would be doing that as well, because obviously you can do well in this industry just flipping domain names. You can make a whole lot more money flipping domain names than flipping trailers and some of the forums that I used to go to 10 to 15 years ago.
Jeff: Absolutely. I keep saying one or two more, but there's a few more out there. I want to make sure we get as many people as possible. They've been patient, and we appreciate it. Clearly, you were an advocate of .com first and foremost. Briefly though, do you not believe in alternatives to significant generic .coms of high value or credible investments, such .orgs, .us, .tv, as we live in a multi media environment?
Rick: Well, it isn't what I believe in. It's what Benjamin Franklin believes in. Let's start there. I follow Benjamin Franklin. He's the guy with a picture on the $100 bill.
Jeff: There you go.
Rick: And listen, the reason that .com is and always will be the king in our lifetime is because that all the Fortune 1,000 companies and all the Fortune 100,000 companies behind them all own a .com. And all those people print brochures, advertise. They advertise on TV, on radio and newspapers, on the side of a truck, on billboards. They spend trillions of dollars combined promoting .com. There's no other extension that's ever going to get to those numbers in our lifetime ever. Follow the money. That's the reason, not because .com is wonderful and .net . . . it's because there is so much money being spent behind .com that no one will ever catch up.
I mean, you have the Super Bowl and you have a little league game. And there's nothing wrong with little league games, but you have to acknowledge a little league game as opposed to a Super Bowl. It's just a whole different ballgame, and I'm sure I'm pissing off a whole lot of people right now, and I don't mean to. All I can tell you is .net is the worst extension on the planet. It's an orphan. And I hope everyone they has a .net builds the hell out of it, and I hope I own some of the .coms, because I'm going to get 25% of your traffic for the rest of both of our lives.
So, .org, I think .org is the number two extension in the universe, because it's used for fundraising and nonprofit, and it has its own identity. And it does bleed a little bit to the .com, but not like the .net does. The .net can lose 25, 35, 50% of their traffic to the .com of people typing it in compared to a .org, which will lose a few percent. .us in time, I don't know about all the other extensions. I went to Moniker today, and they had 80 extension there, and there's probably a gazillion extensions coming. It isn't what I say. It's what the money says. If Olympic.us starts advertising and spends tens of millions of dollars promoting it, that will help that extension. Any extension that big people start pouring a lot of money in will help that extension. But no extension will ever get to .com, because there's not enough money on the planet.
Jeff: Right. Absolutely.
Rick: And that's the reason folks.
Jeff: Is there still an opportunity for 800 vanity domains? And how would you price it?
Rick: Like an 800flowers.com?
Jeff: I guess like 800flowers.com. Something like that.
Rick: Well, personally, I don't like 800 and then a domain name. What I liked for instance, I own 1800TopSecret. And I have www.TopSecret. I wouldn't have 1800TopSecret. So I'm looking at it as I would want it on a brochure, as I would want it on a billboard, as I would want it on a commercial. A few years ago, 10 years ago, when 800 was the lifeline of your business, I always believed that. I said, now that your .com domain name has replaced the 800 number as the lifeline of your business, and it has. And all you have to do now is, your website tells everything to everybody. So the only thing that counts now are two things, your www and your 800.
Jeff: There you go. Absolutely.
Rick: And listen, they have 888 and 877 and 866, but I got news for you. The default is still 800 after all these years.
Jeff: Absolutely. I wrote about that years ago when they started opening up the other toll frees. And 800 remains. Maybe a little 888, but 800 remains.
Rick: And I predicted the 888 would work, because people are lazy, and 888 is easier to punch in than 800.
Jeff: You know what? You serve the masses, meaning if they're lazy make it easier, make it all easier for them.
Rick: They're all lazy and drunk.
Jeff: The 888 taxi, or whenever it is. All the taxis down here in South Florida 444-4444. And I'm sure we're not alone. And that was not a paid endorsement. To what extent have you relied on a broker to help you sell any of the domains from your portfolio? You've not sold a told it sounds like, so probably not a lot of brokers involved, but have you?
Rick: Kevin Leto has been involved in a couple of the deals that I've done. He's been a broker. I don't know if I've sold any others through another broker or not.
Jeff: Okay. And the question before about Agoga, A-G-O-G-A, that is Kevin Ham's company that runs or manages the .cm extensions, Toyota.com, and goes to a PPC page with links to non-Toyota companies. So for clarification, that's what Agoga, A-G-O-G-A, is.
Rick: Okay. Now I know.
Jeff: Now you and I know alike. One last thought. There was somebody out there who said, it's ChefPatrick.com, said he owns KingDomainer.com and would like to offer it as a gift to you. Maybe that's your form of giving back, so if you're so inclined, ChefPatrick.com. Reading any books?
Rick: You know, I'm not really a book reader. What I am is an article reader. I read articles, and I read ads. And if there were no ads, I wouldn't even read the articles.
Jeff: He buys the magazines for the ads.
Rick: Yeah, I do. And I buy "Playboy" for the pictures, by the way.
Jeff: An honest man. You know what? I write about marketing and advertising, and I find myself reading ads and listening to ads, and watching the Super Bowl to see how far afield and stupid the ads can actually be. It's gone beyond trying to sell things. Another comments from somebody out there. "Rick is the reason I am a domainer. Rick was very unselfish in sharing his knowledge. Rick is a unique individual." So that's really a kind thought, and we appreciate the sentiment, and we echo the sentiment here.
Let's wrap it up. I think it's been a great session. I'd love to put it out to you and ask if there's any sort of closing thoughts that you have as far as what this business has brought to you, and more importantly, what you've been able to give back to not just the listeners that are here now that will listen in the future, but the greater community -- those who go to Traffic, those who read stories about you, those who you speak to at events and conferences. What are your closing thoughts on what it's all meant to Rick Schwartz?
Rick: Well, I just think I'm blessed to be in such a great industry with great, forward thinking people. My grandfather was the hosiery king of Fulton Street in Brooklyn back in the early 1900s. And I'd like him to know that I was a domain king.
Jeff: There you go. Did you take HosieryKing.com when the chance came?
Rick: What's that?
Jeff: I said did you take HosieryKing.com out there and then . . .
Rick: You know, I think I looked it up one time, and it was taken. There's a new hosiery king in town. Can you believe that?
Jeff: Can you imagine.
Rick: Can you imagine. You know, we could've all been digging ditches, and if we were born in another age, life wouldn't have been as grand as it is, and I'm hoping that domain names will still give me great opportunity in the future to meet people. It was really cool to meet people like Steve Forbes at Traffic, and we've had some great speakers. I think of all the byproducts of it, Ben Stein was really great to be with and Steve Forbes. They were both priceless. It would've been worth it just to have met those two individuals on the journey. And you know what? Along with other domainers that I put in their league. There's such integrity to some of the guys in the industry. And, like I said, six billion people and maybe 300, 400, 500 figured it out. And here we are.
You know what's really the worst part of it? Is here we are 14 years into this crap. And I'm looking, and there's 75, 100 people listening. And I know there's not one prick from Madison Avenue listening. Not one. There's not one guy in the ivory towers in corporate America listening. There's no one who could really benefit in a really major way from domain names listening. Maybe the guy that bought Candy.com, he may be listening tonight. And I'm going to discuss that eventually with everyone. He's a pretty interesting guy, and he's pretty excited about the journey that he's off to. And hopefully I'm going to help him a little bit with the . . .
Jeff: Those are details we can't disclose quite yet, correct?
Rick: They're going to obviously make their press release on their own time, but it'll be pretty quick. It'll be pretty quick. It's not going to drag on more than maybe 30 days or so, and I think even probably less than that.
Jeff: Well, set your Google alerts for Candy.com so you guys can read up on how the deal went down, or at least know some of the basics. And then Rick will be able to talk a little bit more about that.
Rick: But my only real frustration is that we don't have people from those outside elements, and the retailers and the website owners that could really get the most benefit out of what we do. They're not even listening at this point, 14 years into it. And 14 years into it with their businesses on the line of collapse, and they're still not paying attention.
Jeff: You know what? They're the ones and don't tell them they're failing. Don't tell them they could learn something. Don't tell them someone else can teach them, because they know better than we. That's why, even if they knew this was going on, they would probably say, "Rick who?" They would be none the wiser. I guess you can lead the jacka** to water, but you can't make him drink.
Rick: You know when they are going to listen to this? In about 20 years.
Jeff: They're going to look back and say . . .
Rick: Yeah. That's when it's going to be. I don't know if I'll be here to see it, but I really believe that the history of the Internet will live on way beyond all of us who are listening to this right now.
Jeff: Well, what's interesting if you want to put it into a timestamp, they'll be listening, as you said it, about 10 years after you're 20-year plan is over. So talk about being behind the eight ball or behind the curve. They'll be missing out. But you know what? They're others out there. It's sad that that happens. But the wise ones hopefully will be on board and making it happen.
I think that's about it, Rick. I appreciate your being on board. It's been great having you here and chatting with you this evening.
Rick: Thanks. Jeff. I want to thank Owen for putting on the series. I always describe Owen as a guy jumping on windmills and he gets knocked off of them most of the time. But this time, they didn't knock him off.
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